well, I'm just dying to know what anyone thinks about the last verse here: "But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint" My MacAurthur bible has some good notes on this, but I'd love to hear some opinions...
in fact, I'd love to hear anyone's opinion on MOST of this chapter (lol) Paul has a pretty decisive stand on men & women in the church. How does this affect us today? Can women lead mixed sunday school classes? Chair committees in the church? I don't know what to think about this. Part of me balks at it, and yet another part of me knows I would be uncomforatable being in a mixed adult SS class that had a female teacher... any thoughts out there??
hey, there, I'm back! Well, I have studied this verse extensively before and the conclusion that I came to after that study was quite solid for the first part of the verse, a little shaky for the second. The subject "she" from the first part of the verse literally; της definite article - genitive singular feminine ie. SHE has to be traced back to the antecedent which is Eve in verse 13 and "the woman" again Eve, in verse 14.
The word "child-bearing" comes from τεκνογονιας noun - genitive singular feminine teknogonia tek-nog-on-ee'-ah: literally, childbirth.
This chapter is referring to creation order, the fall, the roles of male and female. For me the understanding of this verse is mostly rooted in Genesis 3 where we see Adam and Eve messing up their roles, He taking her lead, she not submitting to leadership and neither of them living a life of faith, love, sanctity and self restraint.
I believe that salvation is by faith alone, but faith in a person, and faith in a person who had to be "borne". They messed up their roles, but through the bearing of children, Eve, the mother of all living, would become the ancestor of a savior, and in a way would play a part in securing her own salvation. If Jesus never was "born", he couldn't have died. Without his death no salvation would be available to us.
The second part "if they continue" as far as I can see must be referring to the antecedents Adam and Eve. They both messed up, but through the birth of a (future) child (who is alluded to crushing the serpents head a few verses earlier as the descendant of Eve who would crush Satan's head), if they continue in faith, etc, etc.
Ie. It is faith in a "child born" that would save them.
I also see much richness in this passage about the strengths and roles that God desires from men and women. Men are made to lead, but balk from leadership. Women are made to nurture but fight to take the lead. Our sin nature is constantly raging to make us either apathetic to what He has designed and desired for us, or rebellious and desirous of what we view as a "greater" position.
I believe that God has given men and women equality, in all shapes and forms of gifts, but He ordains us to use them in different ways. I believe women have the gift of teaching, just as men do, and that our teaching is just as important as men's teaching, but that it is to occupy a different place. We are not to carry that yoke of authority and responsibility before God as only the man can. When we teach, it is to be under that yoke and authority and THEY will be the ones accountable to God.
I do not believe in women having authority over men because then men would not be men. They would be pansies. I'm listening to a fantastic sermon on this right now by Mark Driscoll in His proverbs series. Awesome stuff in there on gender roles and a whole lot of other stuff.
Did that make any sense at all? Basically, SHE will be saved through the birth of a child(Jesus) if they (extending salvation to all mankind) continue in faith, hope and love." Thus salvation requires two things, the coming of a savior and continuing in faith. Phew.
We are reading our way through the bible one chapter per day. The idea behind my personal reading plan is to read through books chronologically, but not solely one book at a time. Thus on Monday we read from the books of the law, Tuesday the books of kings and judges, Wednesday the books of Jewish History, Thursday Books of Wisdom, Friday the Prophets, Saturday the Gospels and Sunday the Epistles. The next Monday we pick up at the chapter we left off in ancient history. You may think that this would be disjointed and would cause you to "lose your groove" but I have found the contrary to be true, the threads of promise, redemption and grace show up more clearly as I make my way slowly through these books in a parrallel fashion and when I pick up where I left off a week before I am reminded of things that stood out to me from last week's reading. Journaling is a big part of my processing scripture and fixing particular tidbits in my mind for the purpose of life application. I would love to have you join me!
Basic Reading Plan
Mon (Law): Genesis-Joshua
Tues (Rulers): Judges-Chronicles
Wed (History): Ezra-Psalms
Thurs (Wisdom): Prov-Jer
Fri (Prophets): Lam-Malachi
Sat (Gospels): Matthew-Acts
Sun (Epistles) Romans-Revelation.
The theme I have given each section is general. Joshua is not a book of the law and Psalms is not a book of history. The main chunk of reading in each section is, however, suitably classified as the theme it is under. In order to make the sections even out to have the same general number of books/chapters, this was the closest I could come. Otherwise one would be reading through certain sections (like the Law) for instance, much more often than the wisdom books, etc.
(Fellowship is) an expression of both love and humility. [It] springs from a desire to bring benefit to others, coupled with a sense of personal weakness and need. It has a double motive – the wish to help, and to be helped; to edify, and to be edified. It has a double aim – to do, and to receive, good. It is a seeking by Christian people to know God better through sharing with each other what, individually, they have learned of Him already. J.I. Packer.
A few introductory words of encouragement....
Think of your time feeding on God's Word as a vital aspect of your health and wellness. You wouldn't go a week without brushing your teeth, or eating physical food, don't treat the nourishing of your soul by the Word of God with any less care.
Don't cram multiple chapters if you fall behind of plan, but *do* "back-read" if you have the passion and earnest desire to do so. My habit if I miss a chapter is usually to leave it until that book comes up again the next week (based on my own reading plan) and then read two consecutive chapters rather than the one I am scheduled to read.
Don't be legalistic about the when and how. If you don't get a quiet time in the morning, THAT'S OKAY. Find a moment in the afternoon to grab a drink, sit down and put your feet up, and soak up a chapter. And if that doesn't happen, THAT'S OKAY. Take 15-20 minutes at the end of the day to plump some pillows up in your bed and soak it up before you go to sleep. And if that doesn't happen, IT'S OKAY. Tomorrow is a new day. Don't let the enemy discourage you from spending time in the word TODAY because you didn't YESTERDAY. That's just dumb. Did you get that? DUMB.
If you don't have time to read, meditate. Allow God to bring a passage of scripture to mind and allow yourself to listen. Take time to be quiet in your spirit. While you are washing dishes, folding laundry, vacuuming... cleaning bathrooms.
Spruce things up. Get yourself a PRETTY journal and jot down little things that stand out to you. Use your favourite mug or a pretty glass to pour your favourite drink. Sit in your favourite spot (this could change from day to day and depending on the time of day you read. A sunny spot on the porch in the morning, a wing back chair and a blanket if it's chilly, a garden swing in the shade on a hot afternoon, or plumped up in bed with soft lamplight in the evening. Again, don't be legalistic about the location, pick a happy spot that fits the moment/opportunity.) Oh, and DON'T wait for the pretty journal. Plain lined notepaper or even a crumpled scrap paper will work just FINE until you get one....
Remember while you read, God's word is FOR YOU. yes, it was written to a particular audience in a particular time in history and for a particular reason. But it was also written with YOU in mind, TODAY in mind, and is designed to give you strength and wisdom for the journey.
Claim ONE part of the passage and take it to heart. Read through the chapter without too much introspection at first and see what part most stands out to you. Go back and look at that part more specifically and ask yourself what is in there for YOU?
Ask relevant questions. I usually look at a passage with 2 questions in mind. 1. What does this passage tell me about God's character? 2. What does this passage tell me about humanity (ie, ME, in relation to God? a final and very important question to ask is "What does this passage require of me on a practical level?" Write down one attitude, practice or truth you want you live out TODAY in light of what God has just revealed to you. This is how we take ownership of the Word of God and allow it to relate to us and shape us on a personal level.
Build yourself a monument. As I ponder a passages relevance to me I journal the thoughts that arise. Jotting them down somehow cements my convictions in my mind, almost like laying out stones in a monument so I can go back to that place later and be reminded. I also use those notes to come here and share my thoughts later with others.
Keep your actual quiet time concise. This will help make it more likely the habit will continue to happen on a regular basis. Better to spend 15 minutes in the word daily, than 1 hour once a week.
Don't require absolute "alone" and uninterrupted time (without kids around). If they are around, they can learn to not interrupt you for 15 minutes, just like you spend time with other people when they are around, you can spend time with the Lord with them around too.
Think of God’s Word as a love letter to you. When you read stories of God’s wrath in the Old Testament, think about WHAT love paid the price for all that wrath and how a hand that once smote anyone who dared touch the ark of His covenant now beckons YOU to draw near to the throne of grace. Read everything in light of who God is and how much He loves mankind that in spite of our being so deprived, His love story reaches out, encompasses us, washes us clean, and seeks to draw us near.
May you seek Him, may He be found by you, and may you be blessed on the journey.
3 comments:
well, I'm just dying to know what anyone thinks about the last verse here:
"But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint"
My MacAurthur bible has some good notes on this, but I'd love to hear some opinions...
in fact, I'd love to hear anyone's opinion on MOST of this chapter (lol) Paul has a pretty decisive stand on men & women in the church. How does this affect us today? Can women lead mixed sunday school classes? Chair committees in the church?
I don't know what to think about this. Part of me balks at it, and yet another part of me knows I would be uncomforatable being in a mixed adult SS class that had a female teacher...
any thoughts out there??
hey, there, I'm back! Well, I have studied this verse extensively before and the conclusion that I came to after that study was quite solid for the first part of the verse, a little shaky for the second. The subject "she" from the first part of the verse literally; της definite article - genitive singular feminine ie. SHE has to be traced back to the antecedent which is Eve in verse 13 and "the woman" again Eve, in verse 14.
The word "child-bearing" comes from τεκνογονιας noun - genitive singular feminine
teknogonia tek-nog-on-ee'-ah: literally, childbirth.
This chapter is referring to creation order, the fall, the roles of male and female. For me the understanding of this verse is mostly rooted in Genesis 3 where we see Adam and Eve messing up their roles, He taking her lead, she not submitting to leadership and neither of them living a life of faith, love, sanctity and self restraint.
I believe that salvation is by faith alone, but faith in a person, and faith in a person who had to be "borne". They messed up their roles, but through the bearing of children, Eve, the mother of all living, would become the ancestor of a savior, and in a way would play a part in securing her own salvation. If Jesus never was "born", he couldn't have died. Without his death no salvation would be available to us.
The second part "if they continue" as far as I can see must be referring to the antecedents Adam and Eve. They both messed up, but through the birth of a (future) child (who is alluded to crushing the serpents head a few verses earlier as the descendant of Eve who would crush Satan's head), if they continue in faith, etc, etc.
Ie. It is faith in a "child born" that would save them.
I also see much richness in this passage about the strengths and roles that God desires from men and women. Men are made to lead, but balk from leadership. Women are made to nurture but fight to take the lead. Our sin nature is constantly raging to make us either apathetic to what He has designed and desired for us, or rebellious and desirous of what we view as a "greater" position.
I believe that God has given men and women equality, in all shapes and forms of gifts, but He ordains us to use them in different ways. I believe women have the gift of teaching, just as men do, and that our teaching is just as important as men's teaching, but that it is to occupy a different place. We are not to carry that yoke of authority and responsibility before God as only the man can. When we teach, it is to be under that yoke and authority and THEY will be the ones accountable to God.
I do not believe in women having authority over men because then men would not be men. They would be pansies. I'm listening to a fantastic sermon on this right now by Mark Driscoll in His proverbs series. Awesome stuff in there on gender roles and a whole lot of other stuff.
oh my goodness. clear as mud huh?
Did that make any sense at all? Basically, SHE will be saved through the birth of a child(Jesus) if they (extending salvation to all mankind) continue in faith, hope and love." Thus salvation requires two things, the coming of a savior and continuing in faith. Phew.
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